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e164.org - no verification call on +49 1801 555777xxxx

Dieses Thema im Forum "Grundsätzliches" wurde erstellt von Moonbase, 17 Jan. 2007.

  1. Moonbase

    Moonbase Mitglied

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    #1 Moonbase, 17 Jan. 2007
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 17 Jan. 2007
    When trying to register a German +49 1801 555777xxxx (sipgate.de) phone number, I do get the probe call but apparently never the confirmation call?! (Says "Call queued for calling." on the "Phone Numbers" list, though.)

    Why is that so? Number too long (apparently a PBX extension)? Or is it simply too costly (I'm registering for a friend who has not yet donated)?

    ---

    Beim Versuch, eine deutsche +49 1801 555777xxxx (sipgate.de) Telefonnr. zu registrieren, bekomme ich den "probe call", aber niemals den Verifizierungsanruf?! (In der "Phone Numbers"-Liste erscheint aber "Call queued for calling.")

    Warum ist das so? Nummer zu lang (scheint eine Durchwahl zu sein)? Oder ist es nur zu teuer (ich registriere für eine Freundin, die noch nicht gespendet hat)?
     
  2. Jiro

    Jiro Mitglied

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    der Anruf kommt möglicherweise aus dem Ausland.
    Alle 0180 sind zwar theoretisch aus dem Ausland erreichbar, aber der Betreiber kann das selbst einstellen.
    Es ist denkbar, das Sipgate keine Anrufe aus dem Ausland reinlässt.

    Ich habe mir gerade mal drei Nummern mit 01801 555xxx bei google rausgesucht und versucht mit Babble dort anzurufen. Babble sitzt in England und somit kommen die Gespräche aus dem Ausland. Alle drei von mir probierten sipgate Nummern liefern ein "Besetzt" Zeichen.

    Grüße Jiro
     
  3. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    I found the number in logs however it doesn't look like our system could call it, I'm not sure if it's a problem with the provider doing the +491 route, or what specifically.

    I'll have a look further into call logs in the morning...
     
  4. Moonbase

    Moonbase Mitglied

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    Gee, thanks :)

    I assume it's a Sipgate (Düsseldorf, Germany) owned PBX or the like, and the numbers might be just one digit too long for ENUM. As far as I can remember, the PBX trunk number is actually +49 1801 555777, everything that comes after that are actually direct-dial extension numbers.

    Then again, maybe your system just cannot reach German Premium-Cost numbers... (+491801... are actually quite cheap, I guess in the range 2.5-4.6 Eurocents/minute.)
     
  5. Ghostwalker

    Ghostwalker IPPF-Promi

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    Since 2007-01-01 it's 0.039 EUR / Minute. T-Com changed the fee.
     
  6. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    #6 evilbunny, 23 Jan. 2007
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 23 Jan. 2007
    We technically allow any length, however ITU e.164 standard says 15 digits max. The 15 digits include the country code and area code, so max of 15 digits as if you are making a call from some other country. +49 1801 555777 is 12 digits, and the number you listed makes 16, so I guess that answers that.

    I started building a regex list of valid dial plans, however I haven't implemented this on the webs interface yet.

    eg for Germany we have the following expression: ^49[1-9]\d{4,12}$
     
  7. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.164

    "E.164 is an ITU-T recommendation which defines the international public telecommunication numbering plan used in the PSTN and some other data networks. It also defines the format of telephone numbers. E.164 numbers can have a maximum of 15 digits and are usually written with a + prefix. To actually dial such numbers from a normal fixed line phone the appropriate international call prefix must be used."

    I've added code to check entered numbers against a limited number of regular expressions we've built so far for about 15 country codes.
     
  8. jcovert

    jcovert Neuer User

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    Ah, but Mr. Bunny, if you set up this regexp, then you'll create two possible problems:

    1. You'll have to be very careful to keep it up to date when dial plans change within a country.

    2. Although you can't call one of these longer-than-15 numbers over the PSTN, any PBX which is willing to do the longer-than-15 ENUM lookup can still call the e164.org user via SIP, since there is no 15-digit restriction within SIP.

    For the longer than 15 numbers, the problem remains for e164.org to determine how to verify ownership of the number, since a PSTN probe call can't be made. You have that same problem for any number YOU can't reach from the PSTN using the forms of egress from SIP to PSTN that you have available for PSTN probing.
     
  9. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    Dial plans rarely if ever change, and when they do I'm sure people will email and tell us that things are different. Just like they have been because information gathered from wikipedia was just plain wrong in a number of cases.

    A better question is, do people think the ITU have limited things too much by having the maximum limit set to 15 digits? Do people really need more then 15 digits (that's an awful lot of phone numbers).

    Someone previously asked to allow sub-number delegations, but we haven't gotten round to adding this yet.
     
  10. jcovert

    jcovert Neuer User

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    That's an extremely North American -centric view of the world. The dial plans in England, France, Italy, and Greece have all changed dramatically in the last five years, sometimes multiple times.

    Unlike North America, where we typically have Area Code splits (although hopefully we're moving more towards overlays), the typical numbering change in Europe is to modify the standard prefixes or the number length. Thus, for example, all London area numbers first changed from 441ABCDEFG to either 4471ABCDEFG (for Central London) and 4481ABCDEFG for the outskirts, and then to 44207ABCDEFG and 44208ABCDEFG. And people are still confused, and think the area code for London is 0207, when it is, in fact 020 (within London all calls are dialed as eight digits beginning mostly with 7 and 8, but new initial digits are being introduced).

    Even in North America, when the old standard, N[01]XNNXXXXX changed, first to N[01]XNXXXXXX and then to NXXNXXXXXX, there were all sorts of applications and even phone systems which would not accept the new valid number formats.

    Yes, someone will tell you, but only after they figure out whom to tell, and in the meantime, things will be broken.

    Aber Herr Kaninchen, sollten wir nicht unsere Einträge hier in der deutschen Sprache schreiben?
     
  11. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    Considering I'm Australian I take offense at being grouped with the yanks :p

    My point was that technology changes faster then numbering plans, and for us it is easier to work on a complaints based system, then be pro-active, in this case being pro-active reduces/eliminates emails about "why didn't I get a call".

    The same thing happened in Australia about 10 years ago, but due to the changes they have so many additional numbers that I don't think they expect to make further changes in the next 50 years. (amazing what 2 extra digits will do :)

    Actually the US system isn't that simple :)

    NXX != 555, but it can be XXX or 555 if it's a toll free number, then of course there is 20 or so countries in the NANP and I haven't figured out if they all adhere to the same planning as the US and Canada do.

    It displays a nice big messages: "This number appears to be invalid please contact support if you are sure this number is valid."

    A number of people have emailed to point out mistakes with the system, we've corrected them and everything is so far so good.

    eh?
     
  12. jcovert

    jcovert Neuer User

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    I was just teasing you. "But Mr. Bunny, shouldn't we be posting our messages here in German." I repeat, I was just having fun.
     
  13. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    Aber Google spricht nicht sehr gutes Deutsches!
     
  14. alvoip

    alvoip Mitglied

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    At least here in Austria over-long phone numbers are used more often than you might think. In contrast to the U.S., the U.K. (and I THINK also Austrialia, correct me if I am wrong), Austrian phone numbers are variable length. This enables us to add extension digits to an existing full-length number, whereas a London number is always eight digits, even if it is an extension on a PBX.

    In Vienna, normal numbers are 7 digits. Smaller companies with only a few trunk lines typically would have two digit extensions, making nine digit numbers. Bigger companies with more trunk lines are entitled to five digit numbers, to which they append their extensions. My employer is a big company with five digit extensions, so my the whole office number is ten digits. That is AFTER the area code. My office fax number is even 11 digits.

    Of course, with +431 for vienna this is still only 14 international digits, but some applications do use longer numbers, and my experience is that the ITU limit of 15 digits is not observed by many countries. No one has the right to complain if a longer number does not work, but the ITU rule does not mean those numbers must not work.

    Given all that: Just accept longer numbers. If you use the appropriate carrier, they will also work for your probe calls.
     
  15. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    Is it the government policy to not stick to ITU standards, or the company issuing the numbers?

    This thread started in the first place because we couldn't call the number by our provider(s), and we added website restrictions afterwards to prevent people emailing/posting messages about why they didn't receive a call.

    For Austria and Germany we have a variable length limit from about 6 to 15 digits. So far this is the first time anyone has tried to exceed 15 digits that I know of.
     
  16. jcovert

    jcovert Neuer User

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    Vienna has a history of over-long phone numbers.

    Back when the ITU limit was still 12 digits, Vienna had the misfortune to have the city code "222". So, if a company was assigned +43 222 abcd-1 as its main number, but decided to use four digit extensions, to dial directly to the extension you needed to dial +43 222 abcd-wxyz. This was the case with the DEC (|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|) office in Vienna, which required folks in the U.S., where AT&T would not accept more than 12 digits for subscriber international dialling, to place all their calls via the attendant.

    Even Germany, a country where following standards is genetic, had a hospital in Stuttgart at which the extensions could not be dialled directly from the U.S.

    /john
     
  17. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    That still doesn't solve for us the ability to call long numbers when one company donating minutes for AT/DE calls isn't even able to call the number :)
     
  18. Moonbase

    Moonbase Mitglied

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    Now that is bad news. So I won't be able to register my Sipgate number... *sigh*
     
  19. evilbunny

    evilbunny Neuer User

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    How many numbers do you control?
     
  20. Moonbase

    Moonbase Mitglied

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    #20 Moonbase, 28 Jan. 2007
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 28 Jan. 2007
    Hm. Some 27, I guess (without checking, and not all ENUM registered). Plus another 9999 or so whenever my Asterisk is set up *biggrin* (VoIP only, and mainly for testing and demo purposes).